04 June 2010

decisions, decisions

Or not so much

I generally figure a lot of things have strong genetic determinations. People probably have a certain amount or type of brain use for example. They're likely to have a particular manner of coordination (right/left hand dominance), etc. But we have a little bit of control of some of this. We can learn to compensate for these deviations from norms, but often only to a limited extent, and often only by creating compensatory behavioral norms of our own design instead of those compelled upon us by others (research on autistic behavior seems to point this direction, at least so far as I can tell).

Some thoughts.
1) I did not see the population estimates here as high (as Caplan did). I thought somewhere between 6-10% has been a well established estimate of homosexual prevalence in the human population for decades. Kinsey's scale tends to get much higher responses (approaching double), but I'm not sure if it includes something like weak to modest bisexual interests and habits as "non-heterosexual". Been a while since I've looked at Kinsey's research.
2) Looks like a 50-50 genetic/environmental reaction, except I'd venture to guess that genes are likely to be way more hard-coded than environmental features. In other words, where genetics are active, they're very active.
3) Women being more likely to be reported as homosexual (or especially bisexual) is unsurprising. From what I know of this population, and the comparisons in the studies to the habits of homosexual men, it's more or less like their counter parts in the heterosexual population: men seem more likely to seek additional sex, women seem likely to settle on a partner of some sort. I also don't see a whole lot of deviations on whether there's a higher incidence of something like polyamory among homosexuals than over heterosexuals. I'm sure there is some.
4) Seems like a neurological, rather than a pure behavioral or experiential, explanation would be useful given this level of plasticity and especially given the differences between men and women here (men being a bimodal distribution as opposed to Kinsey's conception of a natural distribution, which is a little closer to how the female population looks).

In any case, the documentation and research here on genetics goes back to the 50s and keeps coming up with a (strong) genetic component to sexual orientation. That would tend to mitigate against the logic that this is somehow a "choice". The treatment and reaction by the medical institutions that previously looked upon homosexuality as a disorder basically removed this by simply declaring that nomenclature a bias or a moral reaction/feeling to a somewhat rare behavior, with the only reason being to amend it that it is deemed harmful to the person involved rather than that it poses some danger or serious negative harms to others. Which the only reason being gay would is that other people would treat it so negatively, just as we've previously treated being black or even being left-handed. We look upon both of these reactions as morally absurd now. I suspect for good reason, as it makes about as much sense to express a strong moral displeasure against people who eat hot dogs instead of hamburgers. Preferences are what they are. In some cases, they're fluid. And sometimes they're plastic. The plastic ones we have to live with just as we put up with the random fluidity that gives us a random friend that likes a type of music we hate or who is a vegan while I eat meat, or some such.

10 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hot dogs instead of hamburgers, vegans who love onions while you eat meat... And people who are genetically prone to paedophilia. That is my problem.

As I said before the behavior is a choice, the desire for the behavior, however, not so much.

The idea that there is a hereditary component to this behavior is not one I would question. Reasons for this include that prior to homosexuality being removed by the APA as a mental disorder, 1.5-3% of the US population suffered from it. It has risen significantly from that point.

Partly, because people hide stigmatic behavior, but also because the behavior is not merely genetic. It can be learned.

It is recognized that heterosexuals can control their sexual behaviors, therefore homosexuals should also be able to control their sexual behaviors.

Have you looked at their genetic research into paedophilia? It is quite possible, this, also has a genetic component - much of it may also be caused by brain damage, but that was the original theory concerning handedness and homosexuality. This is the grounds on which I base my opposition to homosexual behavior. In a similar manner to my opposition to this agreed perversion, paedophilia. I do think it is a slippery slope, though you more than likely do not.

Consent is a good way to explain the difference, but because of the arbitrary nature of "age of consent" it still makes me uncomfortable. Abuse is a good way to explain it, as well, but has its own problems with an arbitrary definition.

***
I'm not very pragmatic, but will endeavor to be more so in the future.

Sun Tzu said...

Homosexuals aren't any more genetically prone to paedophilia than the rest of the population. Unless I'm making assumptions again, the actual genetic disposition you're describing is a genetic attraction to children, and not a genetic attraction to the same sex. The fact that a man has sex with a young male child does not make him homosexual, it makes him a paedophile. In fact, statistically, he is quite likely married or in a "normal" heterosexual adult arrangement of some kind. And it's often his own kid or that of a relative's.

I don't see the connection that you keep implying exists between homosexuality and paedophilia or the slippery slope argument because I don't see that there is sufficient, and in some cases any, evidence in the studies on these things to support that theory.

I've no doubt that curiosity or experimentation in homosexual sex acts exists. But for a small percentage of people, it doesn't. It's a fixed behavior and attraction. I'm not quite sure what people would "learn" this from however. Are you implying for example that children adopted/raised by gay parents would learn to be gay (they don't, there's no evidence to suggest they could be "turned" in this way)?

Heterosexuals do control their sexual behaviors by, for example, not having sex in public places. I'm not sure what types of "control" you are suggested are needed or lacking however. It's pretty obvious that a homosexual could avoid having sex in public places under the same logic. Both homosexuals and heterosexuals don't actually have to do much self-control to prevent themselves from not having sex with a child because both groups are not predisposed, either genetically or behaviorally, to being attracted to children.

Sun Tzu said...

I'm not sure that it's changed much since Kinsey started calculating this in the 1950s. That figure has been pretty robustly in the low teens or a shade over 10% ever since they started collecting data. If other figures are rising (and I haven't seen that they have continued rising in some sort of alarming trend line anywhere), I suspect it is because there are less consequences perceived to admitting gay experiences or attractions. There was also still a strong stigma against having any sort of mental disorder period back in the 60s and 70s, not just the strong social forces arrayed against being gay then.

not undecided said...

I highly doubt that a predisposition to child sexual abuse has anything at all to do with genetics. Nine times out of ten in my experience, an abuser was abused. They learn by watching abuse or being abused themselves. It's a cycle. Not genetic. And STILL has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Nothing. I realize you'll look for an argument here, but I am just stating facts as I know them to be.

Sun Tzu said...

Paedophilia is in some way a fixed biological behavior, sort of like a foot fetish. I suppose you could call it brain trauma or damage, but if it's a symptom of abuse, it's hard to see how that couldn't be treated or reversed in some fashion. In most cases, child sex abusers pretty much don't respond to treatment of any kind. I'd think that means you're dealing with some biological component rather than a pure abuse cycle (or perhaps that the abuse cycle itself is genetically related).

Alcoholism or substance abuse looks very much like this too actually except it's much easier to "treat".

not undecided said...

Hmmm. I guess that makes some kind of sense. If you catch it happening while the abuser is young and can be reasoned with rather than just shamed, I do believe you can treat it - true though, this is not successful as often as we'd hope. As with alcoholism, it's something that the person has to choose to fight, and it's something that has to be fought every day. I think the problem lies in the "treatment" that's usually proposed. It's true that they don't usually respond, but I think that is more because they're unable to deal with the abuse that happened to THEM. And so it repeats. I just see this as way more nurture than nature, though there of course is probably some component. A parent (or whoever) that was abused simply has no concept of how to protect their own children or children they care for from abuse, even if they don't perpetrate it personally. And so it repeats. I think it's environment more than anything. If it's been part of your life, it's in some way seen as "normal," or at least "not a big deal," in some way...a thing that can be overlooked or shut away. And so it repeats. I see no biological purpose, if you take the consent issue off the table momentarily and draw the line between children of at least potentially reproductive age and children obviously WAY too young to have anything at all to do with participation in sexual activity other than what should be natural, exploratory learning about it.

Or, maybe it just pisses me off. Especially when you (not you, but you know) try to throw orientation into it. A teenage boy that was abused by an older man will likely choose to abuse younger boys. But his NORMAL sexual attractions (if he's heterosexual) will still be toward women in an appropriate age range. If he's homosexual, he'd also be attracted to men in an appropriate age range. But I still don't think the abuse or lack thereof contributes to a normal development or discovery of sexual orientation. It's a tragedy to say otherwise.

Sun Tzu said...

Analogy: the crime rate is much higher in black neighbourhoods. This means that many blacks are victims of crime, and in many cases, are also perpetrators of it. Does this mean that they are biologically determined to carry out crimes? No. It means they typically are living in high crime environments. It has little (nothing) to do with any innate orientation toward criminality, even though after a while, there are many who become effectively career hoods and are in and out of the criminal justice system.

I'm not convinced this is the case with alcoholism or child molesters that their wiring is entirely caused by environmental factors, but I'd agree that the wiring could be caused that way sure. So far as I can tell though, attraction to children looks like a foot fetish biologically, some sort of mis-wiring of the brain. I'd be skeptical that it has an entirely environmental cause as a result.

I'd be even more skeptical that homosexuality does of course, but that's more because I see these as two mostly unrelated things. Being attracted to other men as a male is very different than being attracted to young children as an adult.

not undecided said...

Right, right! I guess I just also see the molestation/abuse thing as separate from ATTRACTION. Attraction is a normal thing if it's attraction to a person in an appropriate age range. The compulsion to molest or abuse a child is not an attraction, it's a compulsion that originates (most of the time) from the abuser's experience (being abused). Like rape is not about sex, it's about POWER. Not attraction.

Sun Tzu said...

Right, I agree with that, that's why I see less trouble with a teen having sex with another teen (usually) as opposed to an adult having sex with the same teen(s). Usually it's an abuse of power structures.

not undecided said...

Precisely!